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Silver
sterlingirl
08 January 2009 @ 02:07 pm
To be (a Hero) or not to be.  


There's been a bit of an online scuffle the last few days regarding superheroes of the female variety.   Apparently some believe that they're not needed or wanted.   My reaction is, "Pardon?" although with a bit more swearing.  Why is there still a prevailing belief that women are not interested in sci-fi, comics, superheroes, action adventurers?  Why?  Because a great deal of the media would like us to believe that that is true.

One of the reasoning's given behind the cancellation of Stargate Atlantis was the franchises' desire to attrack that much coveted male 18-24 year old demographic with a new series geared toward achieving that end.  (Although I'm not sure why - they'll just download everything bootleg - oh wait *shifty eyes*)  Once again, it seems, women have been shunted to the side in favour of male interests.  This irritates me to no end.  I have always been a sci-fi fan.  The very first movie I saw in the theatre, at the tender age of 3, was Star Wars and I was sitting on my father's knee trembling with excitement.  When I would role play in the backyard I was not only Princess Leia, I was Luke wielding my light sabre to defeat untold numbers of 'bad guys.' No one told me not to simply because of my gender.  My love of sci-fi grew to include Doctor Who,  Star Trek in it's varying incarnations, (with the exception of Enterprise) Alien, Babylon 5, the Stargates, The Matrix, and Firefly.  There are many, many others but you get the point.  

I've always had a great deal of interest in other supposedly male arenas - fantasy, comics, cartoons and superheroes.  I loved reading Spiderman, WonderWoman and Superman when I could get my hands on them.  I watched ThunderCats, He-Man, Transformers, GI-Joe, Voltron, X-men, Bat Man and Spiderman(the ones on during the early 90's), Wonder Woman,  the Superman movies and many others that have slipped into obscurity.    I celebrated when the first X-Man movie was released.  I mourned when the last one sucked so badly. 

I wanted to be Wonder Woman.  And not because of her looks, but because she could run and jump and fight better than the bad guys, because she could fly an Invisible airplane!  I would spin myself dizzy yelling, "Wonder Woman POW!!!" as I envisioned myself transforming from a little 6 year girl into this powerful Amazon.  As I grew older my hero of choice became Cheetara with her incredible speed and awesome stick fighting abilities.  I would find long, straight sticks, as tall as me, and battle the evil minions of Mumm-Ra, and I got quite good with those sticks.  I would wield the Sword of Omens, I didn't need Lion-O's help, calling out "Thundercats Hoooo!"  

All this would contradict what Josh Tyler believes apparently.   In a recent blog entry he stated that -

"Men are interested in action movies with heroes blowing things up and saving the girl. Men are interested in imagining themselves as ass-kicking heroes. Women are interested in movies about relationships and romance and love. Women are interested in imagining themselves finding the right guy and dancing till dawn. Little boys play with guns, little girls play with dolls."
 

There's a great counter-point in this blog entry by Elisabeth Rappe

"Male or female, we all want to be superheroes, and we all enjoy a well-made film with larger than life characters. I don't care if it's Indiana Jones or Bruce Wayne, heroism appeals to us all."

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go dig my Indiana Jones fedora and whip out of storage.
 

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( 26 comments — Leave a comment )
The Stowaway: WTF[info]the_stowaway on January 8th, 2009 08:05 pm (UTC)
"Little boys play with guns, little girls play with dolls"

What the ever-fucking FUCK? I can't even. *hands*

*THIS* little girl's favorite toys were her Annie Oakley cap pistols. (What? We're talking the 1950s here.) I never played with dolls - had no use for them What. So. Ever. And I never identified with the damsel in the stories - I was an action hero.

Oh, man, ignorance like that just pushes so many of my buttons. *fizzes*
Silver: Evil Anakin[info]sterlingirl on January 8th, 2009 08:16 pm (UTC)
On the rare occassions that I played with dolls I tended to do things like cut all their hair off and dress them up in capes. Or have them ride stuffed tigers and be warriors. My sister would chew their fingers, and once a nose, off. :D

Dude needs a re-education pronto.
phoebesmum: EnglishRose3[info]phoebesmum on January 8th, 2009 08:07 pm (UTC)
I swear feminism is going backwards. Or rather, I swear that there is a movement afoot to make it do so, and it's having its effect. You may already have heard my rant about the ubiquity of PINK for little girls. I like pink myself, but not nothing but pink! I had Barbies when I was little, but they came with business clothes and uniforms (okay, they were secretaries and air hostesses, but still); nowadays there seems to be nothing but faiwy pwincesses. And Bratz, which they might as well have called Slagz and had done with it.

Um, yeah.

I was grown-up when Star Wars came out. *sigh*
The Stowaway: Facepalm[info]the_stowaway on January 8th, 2009 08:11 pm (UTC)
"I was grown-up when Star Wars came out. *sigh*"

Hee! So was I. (I was 24.) When Silver said she was three I was all *facepalm omg*. :)
Silver: Orli laugh[info]sterlingirl on January 8th, 2009 08:19 pm (UTC)
Um... sorry? ;p

Now I'm blown away when I realize most of the teeny idols were born in the 90's. o.O
Silver: Crayons[info]sterlingirl on January 8th, 2009 08:21 pm (UTC)
I believe that some people would like us to believe it. In fact, I believe that they want it to happen! With all the Disney Princess, Hannah Montana, and Bratz merchandise crowding the toy shelves at Christmas I almost believed it. But then I watch my neice jump right in to play trucks with her cousins and I know it's all a smoke screen.





Edited at 2009-01-08 08:22 pm (UTC)
Mickleditch: PoT: tensai[info]mickleditch on January 9th, 2009 09:38 pm (UTC)
And Bratz, which they might as well have called Slagz and had done with it.

Word.

Barbie's figure may, admittedly, be somewhat unrealistic, but nevertheless, she was/is a genuinely pretty, wholesome-looking sort of doll, and, as you say, outfits and playsets could be bought for Barbies featuring all kinds of different occupations. What sort of occupation is a Bratz doll likely to aspire to? WAG would be about the top of the scale. Stripper might be more likely.
PirateSorka[info]piratesorka on January 8th, 2009 08:26 pm (UTC)
I noticed you didn't mention XENA. Now there was a woman who kicked some serious ass. Men shivered in more ways then one when she did her war cry.
I was/am passionate about XENA ...and Callisto too!

Growing up a little girls I avoided the baby dolls and playing house for more adventurous games in my head and outdoors. I can't tell you how many wars I won or people I have rescued. Barbie never defined me. Nor did Wonder Woman.
Silver: Ooh Shiny![info]sterlingirl on January 8th, 2009 08:39 pm (UTC)
I didn't mention Trinity from The Matrix either, but hot damn did I want her ass kicking skills! :) There are too many to mention without going on and on.

I always thought Lucy Lawless would be an awesome Wonder Woman if they ever found a decent writer for the script.
Mickleditch: LOTR: good times[info]mickleditch on January 9th, 2009 02:21 pm (UTC)
:D Lucy would rock that part!
with_apostrophe: Sulking[info]with_apostrophe on January 8th, 2009 08:56 pm (UTC)
Josh Tyler is either ignorant or deliberately baiting the hook.

Most of my DVDs are about relationships, and contain romance and love. Most of my DVDs are sci-fi. It's not one or the other, it's both together. Star Wars has been mentioned. Yes it's got fighting and explosions and X-Wings (is that right, I don't own the movies!), but it's also got relationships - family and friends, romance, and love (of all kinds). If I'd been into Star Wars at the right age I could imagine wanting Hans Solo, but I'd be wanting to fight alongside him and pilot the Millenium Falcon when he was stupid enough to get himself knocked out.

I think women are interested in a whole bunch of things on either side of Tyler's divide. I think of the big effects scene in the SGA season 3 finale - big missiles shooting down from space, the camera close behind, the big explosions. How many people on my flist raved about how amazing it was? Most of them. My flist was 100% female back then. Yes, they also raved about the relationships too, but it wasn't one or the other - it was both.

As for SGU, I'm just wondering where it was stated that they were going for the "male 18-24 year old demographic" because I honestly don't recall where that was said and I'd be interested to see it.

Star Trek in it's varying incarnations, (with the exception of Enterprise
If they could have given me half of Voyager's crew (Chakotay, B'lanna, Paris (I guess) and the Doctor, with Tripp (aka Michael) and Malcolm from Enterprise, I'd have been happier. Oh and if it could have been an AU set on Deep Space Nine it would have been fun. (I'm digressing here)

So I'll be Zoe and Kaylee and the non-crazy parts of River, and Mal and Wash(Wash!), and Simon, and Jayne (yeah, maybe not) and Inara (the shuttle flying sword fighting part) and Shepherd Book (so hard to spell Shepherd with the single "p" and the "h" and the "e" these days!) all rolled together thanks, Thingy Tyler person. Not the one, not the other but them all.
Silver: Carter[info]sterlingirl on January 8th, 2009 11:58 pm (UTC)
I'll have to do some searching tomorrow, but I think that the 18-24 comment was on a Sci-Fi channel press blurb.

I don't think this Tyler fellow understands the various meanings of the word romantic. The superheroes he's so proud of are also romantic figures. There is romance in their inner turmoil and struggles against evil. There is romance in their actions. Romance isn't always "Mamma Mia."

Ah Jayne. :D He makes me laugh.

Lots of thinky thoughts here. I will think more on what you've said and come up with a better reply by morning. Honest!

Silver: 'At your side'[info]sterlingirl on January 9th, 2009 09:35 pm (UTC)
Okay, the closest I could come was this quote from a press release on Gateworld. I know it's not the one I'm looking for. I can picture it in my head and I just can't remember where I read it!

For the Stargate franchise to enter a new era and attract a new audience, however, network president Dave Howe believes that Universe should update its storytelling for a new generation.

"What we endeavor to do each time is to introduce the franchise to a new audience, make it a bit more contemporary, more relatable," Howe told Multichannel News this week. "The ambition with Universe is to skew it younger than the previous two chapters and fill it with a fresh-faced cast; and a storytelling that is more for the late 2000s than it is for the 1990s."


Anywho -

I agree when you say, 'a little of this mixed with a little of that please.' That is what I find annoying about this, the idea that we should be slotted in this or that category based solely on being "Male" and "Female." It is very frustrating. People aren't so easily categorized. There are many males who enjoy romance. There are many females who enjoy action/adventure. We're not genetically hardwired to fall into the roles this Tyler fellow would have us do.

I like your amagalm of Firefly characters. That would be one complex person. :D I would love to have some of Inara's culture and grace thrown in there as well. I'm rather a klutz. :)

*hugs*


merithehobbit: Kiss[info]merithehobbit on January 8th, 2009 10:45 pm (UTC)
*blink* Omgosh what a moron. *guh* this...I can't even think clearly this is so obnoxious. ARGH! Okay it shouldn't surprise me right...like men have ANY idea what women are like?

Clearly this guy had no sisters and knew no girls growing up, and has a grudge against his girlfriend asking him to attend Twilight and making him look soft and wimpy or something just because he can't stop a moving car. ;) Now I admit I like romances, but I don't LIVE for romances, most of us ladies have balance in our lives! Sheesh I love chocolate, but I don't eat it for dinner, I have steak. What? Only guys can like steak?

I played with dolls (but they usually had amazing adventures), but I could also climb the highest in the tree. I raced around barefoot all summer in Phoenix-bet he's never tried THAT, even a superhero would go find flip flops. I grew up watching James Bond and Wonder Woman and yes...Star Wars. I was six, and it was like an awakening! I always had to be either Luke Skywalker, Han Solo or either R2-D2 or C-3PO, and not just because my sister was always Princess Leia but because Princess Leia even with her phazer gun was not able to run around and really kick butt enough for me. I think there is a much larger portion of the female population that likes the action adventure type/sci-fi/superhero movie than he can fathom with his pea sized brain. I mean, look who was online when LOTR came out, 20 women to 1 guy talking about it. And it wasn't because they were looking for a romance in Fellowship!

As a mother I'm appalled at the sexism in the clothing industry, the music, movie and just about every other industry. I could rant for ages about this soft sexism of making all things slutty 'in style', and painting girls as not being strong enough without a boy, when really what women want is what is real. A girl who can deal with life and blood (hello, is there any man out there who could deal with having a period once a month without being squimish?) and still knows that there are more important things than just selfish desires. That's a superhero. And there's more girls than guys who know this.

Er...sorry I just went OFF. :) *hugs* I swear, all we need to do is harness the power of PMS and we'd bring the world to it's knees! ;)
Silver: Cookie[info]sterlingirl on January 9th, 2009 02:40 pm (UTC)
Mmmmm steak! My favourite. :D

The idea that we all fit neatly into boxes marked "Male" and "Female" is very frustrating. People aren't so easily categorized. Things like "Spike TV" and all the magazines that feed into it drive me crazy.

No apology needed to get something off your chest. *hugs*

Cookie?
The Stowaway[info]the_stowaway on January 8th, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC)
A propos of this discussion, look what showed up on the BBC website today: Should We Not Dress Girls in Pink?
Silver: Legolas Smile[info]sterlingirl on January 8th, 2009 11:59 pm (UTC)
Thanks for the link. I will check it out tomorrow at work. :D *is sneaky with the internets*
Silver[info]sterlingirl on January 9th, 2009 02:35 pm (UTC)
Ugh! That Gurian fellow is off the mark I think. Nature plays a huuuge part, yes, but the way people treat you affects how you see yourself and how you treat people in return. (I apologize for the appaling lack of punctuation in that sentence - can't brain today) It's too simplistic to say ..."humans are programmed in a certain way and no amount of contact with external influences can change that."
The Stowaway: Winter[info]the_stowaway on January 9th, 2009 02:54 pm (UTC)
Yes, I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, as is so often the case.
Mickleditch: Tenimyu: Kime x Aiba = Fujicest[info]mickleditch on January 9th, 2009 03:03 pm (UTC)
*ponders* I don't think I was really guns or dolls as a child. Playing overt action/war games didn't interest me, but nor did playing families. I liked what you might describe as gender-neutral playthings: animal toys, construction toys, science kits, etc.

Likewise, now, I enjoy movies with both action and romance (and usually, comedy) elements. I like romance in movies and fiction, but most female characters bore me - which is why I like gay/BL plotlines.

*is androgynous*
Silver: Crayons[info]sterlingirl on January 9th, 2009 08:59 pm (UTC)
That's what's irritating about this, the idea that we should be slotted in this or that category based on our gender - when even that is not as cut and dry as people believe.

Most female characters are very poorly written - by male writers - an don't feel like fully fleshed out characters. Perhaps that why I prefer slash as well. *shrugs*

Mickleditch: AAA: Nissy Shin happy[info]mickleditch on January 11th, 2009 11:35 am (UTC)
I think women are stereotyped even more than men. Have you ever looked at women's magazines? Virtually nothing except fashion/makeup, dieting (and ironically, cookery), weepy 'real-life' stories and relationship advice. Men's magazines, although they do feature the expected elements (cars, girls, etc.) also cover quite a wide range of other topics.

Most female characters are very poorly written - by male writers - an don't feel like fully fleshed out characters. Perhaps that why I prefer slash as well. *shrugs*

*nods* I'm not sure if it's even simply due to the predominance of male writers, as it seldom, to me, seems to improve matters even when the writing team is female.

It's as if... I don't know... when depicting a female character, writers (whether male or female) always have to write her as A WOMAN, rather than, as when writing a male character, simply a person. Does that make any sense?
Silver: Ronon stache[info]sterlingirl on January 11th, 2009 04:49 pm (UTC)
This might sound simplistic as well, but I think a lot of what we see and hear about what men/women want is media generated because of economics. If 'we' (the advertisers) can convince the people they want this or that then 'we' will make money. And there are a lot of people out there who will follow trends because they are told to. Who will want "what all women want" because they're afraid of being different.

An example that easily comes to mind is "Diamonds are a girls best friend." So many women are convinced that they need this overpriced piece of rock to show they've found 'twu wuv.' ArGH!

always have to write her as A WOMAN, rather than, as when writing a male character, simply a person.

That makes a lot of sense. "Look at what this character is capable of, aaand she's a woman!" Which is demeaning itself.

Edited at 2009-01-11 04:50 pm (UTC)
Mickleditch: Tenimyu: Wada[info]mickleditch on January 11th, 2009 06:53 pm (UTC)
And there are a lot of people out there who will follow trends because they are told to. Who will want "what all women want" because they're afraid of being different.

It's rather sad really, isn't it? As I was writing the other day on an almost completely different topic, what a lot of people 'want' seems to in fact consist of a mixture of three things:

a) what they actually want,

b) what it's acceptable to want in the social group they choose to be a part of,

c) what the media tells them they should want.

I'm not sure they can even tell which is which after a while.

That makes a lot of sense. "Look at what this character is capable of, aaand she's a woman!" Which is demeaning itself.

Exactly so... and what I also mean is even harder to explain. The fact that the character is female has to overshadow practically everything she does. Her problems are always women's problems, not just things that could happen to anybody, male or female - or on the rare occasion they are non-specific, she still has to react to them in a 'typically' female way. She has to be interested in certain things and have certain habits because they're women's interests and habits - for instance, a male character wouldn't automatically be shown to be a football fan just because that's a stereotypically male interest, but unless she was deliberately being depicted as being weird or eccentric, nobody would think to show a female character who had no special interest in fashion/makeup/etc. Even her sense of humor can rarely go the whole stretch without at least dipping into 'women's humor' - what I sum up as, 'Periods, Periods, Aren't Men Awful?' humor. We're constantly being smacked round the head with the fact that the character is A WOMAN. I think male characters are permitted to be more 'neutral' - to just be a person.
littleblueghost[info]littleblueghost on January 10th, 2009 11:29 am (UTC)
Ummm... ok, my first thought about sci-fi, that they are often somewhat soap operas set in space (especially, DS-9 and BSG off the top of my head.) Besides the adventure side of things they are about people and relationships - just about every single one I can think of... They have universal appeal to everyone who can get past the whole sci-fi thing (I have some friends that detest sci-fi and fantasy, for some odd reason, probably because, after talking to them, I realised they like reality, and watch an immense amount of reality tv... bleh).

My parents let us pay with whatever toys we wanted, so I had matchbox cars and barbie dolls, and building blocks (inherited from my sister who glued some of them together as that made the base stable- she is now an engineer). And tea-sets and play kitchens(I apparently made pretend onion soup with my dad's daffodil bulbs when I was three - still addicted to cooking).

WonderWoman was awesome, and I loved Voltron and Transformers and She-ra and He-Man :P

I think there are some very strange ideas about what gender specific things are, but the fact of the matter is some guys are gentler than some women I know, and hate to see people hurt, and some women like to blow things up. (In fact explosions are quite fun, as are fireworks...and other pyrotechnics). Also, guys can be worse bitches than girls on occasion... I am sure of it!



Silver: Cat yarn[info]sterlingirl on January 11th, 2009 04:43 pm (UTC)
Another male arena that is usually quite a soap opera is pro wrestling (ie WWE). All that manly sweating and hitting and posturing is often surrounded by such silly soap opera-ish storylines. During university I always teased my housemates that they had to watch their 'soap' as they sat down to watch wrasslin'. :D

I like the idea that people are complex and don't necessarily fit into these prescribed roles. I don't like when someone tries to generalize based on gender. It's too limiting. My little guy likes to sit and watch my "do my threads" and occasionally does a stitch or two. No way am I going to tell him he can't because he's a boy. Pfflt to that!
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